This is not about me, I reminded myself, and went to greet the two young girls whose eyes clearly registered insecurity at being in a strange place. They clung to their Bibles and walked not far behind their large mother.
It was as though they were ashamed of something.
I wasn’t much in a talking mood and merely pointed them in the right direction.
“Teens go over there,” I offered, pointing to the corner, and then hurried on my way.
Later I sat in on the teen class, and prayer requests were asked for. The two girls hadn’t said much and sat close together in the corner. They gave their names when asked, but otherwise didn’t talk. I looked closely at the one that was clearly older. She was thin and pale and even though she was in a dress it hung off of her rather shabbily. She walked in a very subdued way, as though, whatever lot her life had given her, she had accepted it. She was not very attractive but something about her seemed prim… as though her pale blue eyes were struggling to appear very proper and normal. Christian, even.
Still, it was as though she were ashamed of something.
The younger sister had secrets, though. I could see them in her eyes. She was the pretty one with freckles across her stubborn cheeks and dark blue eyes that were one instant stormy, one instant sweet. She stared at the table, however when I asked her if she wanted coffee, she lifted her head almost shyly and tried not to look eager as she said yes. She, too, was dressed a little shabbily, but she carried herself in a way that stubornly denied to accept the lot she had in life. She was one who would not be subdued. She would carry her mysteries with her, while her older sister would hold her sadness plainly on her face. The young girl hung back from laughter and hid behind her coffee cup.
It was as though she were hiding something she was ashamed of.
Prayer requests were asked for again, and after a few had spoken up about this great-aunt that was sick, and that cousins friend who was going to have a baby, the older sister raised her thin hand.
“Yes, Lisa?”
She looked down and said in a quiet, proper voice, “Could you pray for my daddy because he drinks a lot and he gets really mad when he drinks. He’s not saved and he needs Jesus.”
She just came out and said it. I looked at those two girls again, and their faces bothered me even more later when I was alone. They were so young, and yet they carried that father of theirs every where they went. There was that older sister trying to be strong, even if she had to square her plain face and ask prayer from strangers. And then there was the younger sister who was slumped in her chair, her eyes intent on something else, her mind in a different place, her problems shoved into a dark closet that needn’t be opened.
What can a stranger do, I thought, but pray? Perhaps if I saw them more, a stranger could become a friend… but even then I believe I would be haunted.
They need those ridiculous burdens to be lifted from young, bright eyes.
They need their circumstances to change.
They need to have confidence in who they are, and not define themselves by who they came from.
They need to grow stronger and find the answers they are looking for.
A wise person once said, “You can’t change your circumstances, but you can change the way you react to them.”
They need to know… and how do I tell them… that they don’t need to be ashamed anymore.
There is beauty in the individual.
"You may limit where my feet can walk,
But I will soar beyond where you set me.
I will dream of a greater place.
I will fly,
Far, far away from home.
And I will achieve.
Not because it is easy.
But because I cannot be tied to this earth.
You may limit me.
But I will fight to be free.
And along the way,
I will love the small, inconspicuous things,
Love the God whom people fear to acknowledge and instead limit,
And not limit my own love to the
Big mountains everybody else loves.
Limited, yes.
But while I may walk in this path,
Between these two rust-golded fences,
My heart within will find no bounds,
My eyes will look above
From this valley,
And I will set my eyes
On all the mountains I can climb."
So in a way, it is about me. It affects me. It haunts me. It has become a part of me.
9 comments:
Hello again,
Sorry, have been busy - just posted back on the other thread.
Sad story - the girl obviously has courage, and obviously needs help.
You may already have done this/considered this, but, if I may get on my non-believing high-horse for a minute: there are other more useful things you can do instead of praying. Or at least, as well as. There must be services available who can help these kids and their dad: http://www.nacoa.org/contact.htm is the first thing my google search came up with.
I've done this before, with people who needed help because of parents drug abuse. It's not an easy thing to do, and it wasn't appreciated at first, but eventually, the help got through, and it made a big difference to everyone.
Prayer is all very well, but really, that's just making yourself feel better about it. That's all I'm saying on this one.
lol Voltare44. Hi! I was wondering if you would come out the wood work for this one, riding your valiant steed of unbelief, and waving the flag of logic.
I'm glad you posted that site, though. I am also a person who believes you can do more than praying. I have met too many self-professing-Christians who will pray for something but will never DO anything to help that prayer become a reality. I believe God answers prayer by using people, not just waving a magic wand. In this case, it would be completely innappropriate for me to direct these girls to a 'site' and then leave them to it. I didn't really see anything on there that would apply to them immediately. But I do believe that people like that just need a listening ear. They give a little cry for help not because they want your sympathy or your psychiatric counsel. They want somebody to care.
Anyways, I'm not proffessing to be the doctor on all matters of the heart, but I do care. And I have seen many situations where people can run themselves ragged trying to solve problems, when it DOES help to just sit down and talk to God about it before you do anything else. God can always see the bigger picture and He makes everything a little clearer. God can make things happen, that man can only dream of.
You're right, though. Prayer does make one feel better, because it is beseeching a higher power. It is better than having good intentions, and then doing... nothing.
Well, looking back at the link I gave, I'm not sure how useful they would be, it was just a first google. All I'm saying is, there are services out there that you can ring up, on behalf of people, if you see that they really need help. There are ways. At least there are in Australia. I guess I'm a little wrongfooted here though, of course, as you obviously don't actually know these kids, they're just "strangers" as you say. Perhaps the only thing you really CAN do is pray, so hey.
They give a little cry for help not because they want your sympathy or your psychiatric counsel. They want somebody to care.
It's not really a question of what they want - it's more what they need. I think people in those sorts of situations very often dont realise they need REAL help, until it's forced upon them. Very often they DO need psychiatric council, or the help of social services of some sort etc. That sort of stuff can be helpful. How to help them get it is a much harder question of course.
You believe that God answers prayer by using people. That's great. I happen to believe that the people are the active force - they will help, or not help, whether or not there is a God.
It's just a matter of perspective. All the good things and the bad things that people do still happen, whether or not there is a God; the old saying goes that good people will do good things, and bad people will do bad things - but it takes something like religion to make good people do bad things.
I don't get how you can say things like "God can always see the bigger picture and He makes everything a little clearer. God can make things happen, that man can only dream of." and be fully sincere. How can you know what God can and can't see? He doesn't actually respond, does he? If a picture is made a little clearer for you, how do you know it's not just because you thought about it some more? Why is God neccessarily involved? Man can and does dream of all sorts of amazing things, but God doesn't seem to make them happen - in the end it's people that do. God is the sort of person that is content to twiddle his thumbs and let tens of thousands die in natural disasters, while at the same time people seem to think that God cares enough that if they pray for lower petrol prices, God actually will. Does that make sense? Are they serious? Do you pray for lower petrol? What sort of things do you pray for?
Prayer is not better than having good intentions and then doing nothing: it is EXCACTLY that. It's saying "I pretend to care about this situation, so I'm going to have an imaginary conversation in my head with some mysterious entity that doesn't answer, knowing that the problem likely wont be resolved, given that every time I pray for the end of war, and famine, these things don't happen. But it makes me feel better, then I can get on with my life."
I wish someone could come up with a real explanation for a benefit of prayer, because, if you are remotely cynical, it looks like hypocrisy, or negligence.
I've wondered what would happen: next time you feel the need to pray for something, what would happen if you prayed not to God, but to the paperweight on your desk? (assuming you have a paperweight, if not anything will do.) Would the result be any different?
Sorry, some of this post comes from me being cynical and grumpy today, some comes from a genuine inability to fathom prayer and why people seem to put some stock in it, when it should surely be clear that time and time again it simply doesn't work.
All the best
Ah, dear Voltare44. You're primary error in thought is this:
"God is the sort of person that is content to twiddle his thumbs..."
God is not a person. Now I realize you're groaning right now that I'm labouring over mere specifics, but that is important to remember.
Now, let me explain what I mean when I talk about what seems mumbo-jumbo to you. It's really my way of simplifying it so that it's easier to understand.
Let's suppose that God created us, and He knew each of us before we were even formed in the womb. Let's just suppose that He is so powerful that He knows EVERYTHING (omniscient) and He is EVERYWHERE (omnipresent) and He is all powerful (omnipotent). Come on, stop rolling your eyes, just imagine it's possible. Let's just imagine that before He even created this earth, he knew everything that was going to happen and no disobedient Eve or natural disaster was a surprise to Him. He knew all of the sorrow that would come, and yet He had a purpose in it. To glorify Himself. That's where you REALLY turn off, isn't it? But it's true. If God really is the Supreme Being, and yet He cares enough to love the arrogant humans of earth, why wouldn't He want them to praise Him? It works. It makes sense. Now why else did He create us? I could speculate about how he wanted us to be able to make our own choices and enjoy the little things in life and then reap the just rewards, but... that sounds cryptic. I really don't know, Voltare44. But I can't see how ANYONE can look around this world and appreciate the undeniable beauty in God's creation... and deny God.
If you were a Bible-believing guy, I'd tell you to read it for yourself. It surprisingly answers a lot of questions. But, honestly? I've had plenty of times where I felt like my prayer was never answered. I've given up on prayer before - definitely. So you could call me a hypocrite when I sat there and pretended to pray but really prayed to some kind of inanimate object, like, say a paper weight. But someone once explained it like this. God always answers prayer. He says yes and He says no. The times when it seems like God was ignoring me were times that God had a better plan. Does that makes sense? He, as the all-seeing, all-knowing God, sees what is BEST for man, and says no to those that ask for things that would not be best in the long run. I realize this sounds like a whole bunch of bull, but maybe it'll help you understand us hypocritical Christians more, eh?
Okay so here's something interesting. Don't turn off the brain just cuz it's scripture.
"Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete." - John 16: 23-24
This idea of people dedicating their lives to glorifying GOD is completely foreign to you, isn't it? But honestly a completely dedicated Christian is not supposed to pursue things for himself. A dedicated Christian is supposed to devote his life to asking things in Jesus' name that are not to benefit SELF but to benefit God. Anyways, that's what I've always been taught, so that's the best 'answer' I have for you. Ask and ye shall receive, eh?
I sound annoying, I'm just realizing, so I'm going to stop typing. Whatever. I realize you are intrigued but not really quite interested. I believe, Voltare44, that you see the name 'Jesus' or 'God' and you turn reality off in your brain and don't really HEAR and try to UNDERSTAND. You want to understand the PEOPLE who spout off religion but have you ever tried to understand the reason why so many of us annoying Christians live?
"God is the sort of person that is content to twiddle his thumbs..."
God is not a person. Now I realize you're groaning right now that I'm labouring over mere specifics, but that is important to remember.
Sorry: "God is the sort of indescribable-mysterious-intelligent-entity that is content to twiddle his thumbs." Is that better?
Now, let me explain what I mean when I talk about what seems mumbo-jumbo to you. It's really my way of simplifying it so that it's easier to understand.
I get the impression you simplify it so as not to have to acknowledge the inherent contradictions, or answer questions. It's very easy to believe in a god and not really think about it.
Let's suppose that God created us, and He knew each of us before we were even formed in the womb. Let's just suppose that He is so powerful that He knows EVERYTHING (omniscient) and He is EVERYWHERE (omnipresent) and He is all powerful (omnipotent). Come on, stop rolling your eyes, just imagine it's possible. Let's just imagine that before He even created this earth, he knew everything that was going to happen and no disobedient Eve or natural disaster was a surprise to Him. He knew all of the sorrow that would come, and yet He had a purpose in it. To glorify Himself. That's where you REALLY turn off, isn't it? But it's true.
Ok, so we went from "let's suppose" to "it's true." How did that happen? At what point did your suppositions become truth? Plenty of other people suppose different things. The Omniscient Omnipresent Omnipotent image of god is quite a difficult one. I'm not rolling my eyes, I've seen all this before - I'm interested where you'll go with it.
If god is all of the above three, then god is clearly not loving. If he knows what is going to happen, and is powerful enough to change it.... but doesn't, what does that say about God, about his character? He is clearly willing to treat people extremely poorly. Even the most faithful believer is not free from the ravages of cancer, or being hit by a bus, or suffering humiliation at work, or any of the many things that an omnipotent god could and doesn't take an active part in fixing. And this is the god that is supposed to be the source of our morality. We are made in his image, and we get our morals from him. What does that say about us? Shouldn't we be trying to be BETTER than god, given that he is clearly such a poor example?
To quote (with apologies, I'm not a fanatic) Richard Dawkins: "The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.
His sole purpose is to glorify himself? And you think that's ok?
We went from supposes to "it's true." That says nothing about the quality of your argument, just about your mindset. We could suppose all sorts of things: that he's omniscient but not omnipresent: that would explain why he doesn't ALWAYS answer prayers, or he doesn't regularly make public appearences - because he can't be everywhere at once. But I can't say that's true anymore than you can.
I just honestly believe that an omniscient omnipresent omnipotent god would be perhaps SLIGHTLy more obvious in the world? Even just a tiny bit? Given that everything that happens in the world generally CAN be explained by chance/non chance events: weather patterns, a bus running someone over, someone not dying of cancer because he got good early treatment, then why do we have to put a God in there. If we put such a powerful god in the picture, wouldn't we expect the picture to be at least a BIT different? SLIGHTLY less war? In GENERAL more christians saved from natural disasters?? Why does God limit his power, or be so callous as to not use it? What happens to people who've grown up in a foreign country who have never even heard of the Christian God? When God strikes them down with typhoid or some disease, what is his motivation?
If God really is the Supreme Being, and yet He cares enough to love the arrogant humans of earth, why wouldn't He want them to praise Him?
Why WOULD he? Given the enormousness of the universe, and the general pettiness of everything humans pray for "oh, end war, make me happy, heal my brothers chicken pox" etc etc, isn't it the absolute HEIGHT of human arrogance to assume that an omniscient omnipresent omnipotent being actually runs around and listens to everybody? It's just peoples way of putting themselves at the center of the universe, and assuming that universe cares so amazingly about them to the detriment of all others - flying in the face of all evidence to the contrary that the universe just is, and stuff happens, and prayer doesn't work.
It works. It makes sense.
No, it doesn't. This uber-powerful entity, that can create planets and stars with the click of his fingers, has such an inferiority complex that he demands us little people to run around praising him, and sacrificing goats, depending on when you were born? It's an amazingly arrogant assumption to not only a) assume the existence of this improbable uber-god and THEN b) assume that he spends all his time being so intricately tied up in the affairs of people praying for a little bit of sunshine for a soccer match, or for petrol prices to go down. Breathtaking arrogance.
Now why else did He create us? I could speculate about how he wanted us to be able to make our own choices and enjoy the little things in life and then reap the just rewards, but... that sounds cryptic. I really don't know, Voltare44.
So you've gone back from "it's true" to speculation and "I really don't know." Sounds like you're faith is on shaky ground, actually.
But I can't see how ANYONE can look around this world and appreciate the undeniable beauty in God's creation... and deny God.
Because if you look around and simply appreciate the undeniable beauty, and then realise the AMAZING HUMBLING realisation that you are just a part of that process.... it is all much more obvious. You don't need to spend all this time wrestling wondering about why God does this and not that, why there is evil, whether you should be catholic or baptist, whether wearing a hat to church is offensive or not, whether god hates homosexuals or not..... When you realise that that's all irrelevant, and that we're all in it together, us and every creature on the earth, as part of a long and amazing process of self-replication... the world can then move on and forward.
If you were a Bible-believing guy, I'd tell you to read it for yourself.
I have: So did richard dawkins - that's how he came up with his quote about god above. That's just from reading the text of the Old Testament.
(more later)
It surprisingly answers a lot of questions.
I'm interested. Which questions, for you have been answered by the Bible? Really?
But, honestly? I've had plenty of times where I felt like my prayer was never answered. I've given up on prayer before - definitely
So you could call me a hypocrite when I sat there and pretended to pray but really prayed to some kind of inanimate object, like, say a paper weight. But someone once explained it like this. God always answers prayer. He says yes and He says no. The times when it seems like God was ignoring me were times that God had a better plan. Does that makes sense?
No. It doesn't. You see, that's the whole point of the excercise. If you pray fervently to that paperweight, the paperweight can answer your prayers in two ways. Yes - your prayer is immediately answered; or No, nothing happens, and the paperweight clearly had a better plan for you. It makes sense because only because it's the ultimate cop-out; the prayer will be answered within perfectly reasonable expectation. Notice how whenever you pray for something genuinely miraculous, that NEVER happens? Whereas, if they pray for their great aunt to survive cancer, then the aunt might surive or might not, depending on how much treatement she receives and all sorts of factors - none of which can actually be attributed to god intervening? A paperweight will give exactly the same answer as a god. Yes, or No. It's all part of a MYSTERIOUS plan, which is very convenient way of covering up the fact that it doesn't work.
He, as the all-seeing, all-knowing God, sees what is BEST for man, and says no to those that ask for things that would not be best in the long run. I realize this sounds like a whole bunch of bull, but maybe it'll help you understand us hypocritical Christians more, eh?
And people say atheists are nihlists. That sounds more than a little depressing, reeks of us lacking any free will. It is very Candide - everything is for the best in this best of all possible worlds.
Okay so here's something interesting. Don't turn off the brain just cuz it's scripture.
But isn't that what Christians do? Oh, I'll try it....
"Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete." - John 16: 23-24
Ok, so if I switch OFF my brain, I think "oh, that's nice, God cares, because Jesus says so."
But if I switch ON my brain, I think: Is Jesus a liar? Or is he just wrong? This is the Gospel, what Jesus said, the word of God. And Jesus says "My Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. Ask and you shall receive."
Notice he doesn't qualify it. This is the word of God, but he doesn't say "Ask, and God will consider your request, and if you are sincere and true in your heart, then your request MIGHT be granted, but really only sometimes, and make sure you don't ask for anything impossible or really unlikely, because god really doesn't like to do miracles often, even though he's omnipotent and LOVES YOU, he finds them a pain and people ask too many questions, so miracles don't happen. Just ask for things that have a good chance of happening anyway, and then maybe they might happen. Perhaps. "
No. He says ask and you shall receive. And yet, everybody prays, and nothing remarkable happens, except sometimes people pray for a sunny day and it is sunny and they say "Oh wow, thankyou God." Is Jesus lying, or is he just wrong? But he can't be wrong, because he's God, so he's obviously lying to us.
This idea of people dedicating their lives to glorifying GOD is completely foreign to you, isn't it?
I see it all the time. I see millions of people in the Arab world dedicating their lives in horrible ways to glorifying god - only it's presumably the wrong God. What do I say? Whoops?
But honestly a completely dedicated Christian is not supposed to pursue things for himself. A dedicated Christian is supposed to devote his life to asking things in Jesus' name that are not to benefit SELF but to benefit God.
God's omnipotent, what does he want with things?
Anyways, that's what I've always been taught, so that's the best 'answer' I have for you. Ask and ye shall receive, eh?
I sound annoying, I'm just realizing, so I'm going to stop typing. Whatever. I realize you are intrigued but not really quite interested. I believe, Voltare44, that you see the name 'Jesus' or 'God' and you turn reality off in your brain and don't really HEAR and try to UNDERSTAND. You want to understand the PEOPLE who spout off religion but have you ever tried to understand the reason why so many of us annoying Christians live?
Not true. It's just that I think people like YOU often hear the name "Jesus" or "God" and turn off reality. Reality is there, whether God is there or not.
Why so many Christians live?? What does that mean? There's not THAT many of you. Granted, there's a LOT, but only 1 third of the worlds population are christian, which means two thirds believe in something else - Christians are in a minority.
Seriously, Voltare44, you're exhausting me. I come home from work and this is what I get, eh?
This is how you described God? "God is the sort of indescribable-mysterious-intelligent-entity that is content to twiddle his thumbs." How can you be so sure, Voltare44? How can you so callously shake your fist at God and His word? You wonder why I am sure when here I have God's word to read more about God - who is in essence three-in-one... not just man, not just spirit, not just father of Jesus... in fact all three. How can you be so sure when all you have is human supposition. Speak of 'supposing'. You have nothing behind you but your own dogmatic cynicsm and your cynical friends!
"At what point did your suppositions become truth?"
I find I'm at the point where I can say nothing right. If I make dogmatic statements, you will focus on the fact that I believe something dogmatically without hard evidence. If I ask you to suppose that something is true, you demand for me to say something that is dogmatically true. Come on... give me so elbow room and just READ it for once.
"We could suppose all sorts of things: that he's omniscient but not omnipresent: that would explain why he doesn't ALWAYS answer prayers..." I already told you, dear Voltare44. He does ALWAYS answer prayers. He just doesn't always answer prayers the WAY people want Him to.
And yes God DOES glorify himself, and that IS okay. What, do we - the creation - demand that God serve US? God helps us in multitudes of ways that we don't even deserve, and then we have the audacity to wake up in the morning and shake our fists at God for not doing more for us? God created us. It makes sense that if he created us in His image, He wants us to be a reflection of Him. God doesn't pop out of magic-lamps in public settings to make everybody gasp and suddenly "believe" in God. God asks only faith of His creation. God asks for belief in Him.
"I just honestly believe that an omniscient omnipresent omnipotent god would be perhaps SLIGHTLy more obvious in the world? Even just a tiny bit? Given that everything that happens in the world generally CAN be explained by chance/non chance events: weather patterns, a bus running someone over, someone not dying of cancer because he got good early treatment, then why do we have to put a God in there. If we put such a powerful god in the picture, wouldn't we expect the picture to be at least a BIT different?"
I don't know - do you not believe there's any kind of spiritual world? Obviously SINCE there is a God (there - dogmatic) then there is Satan. Where there is good, there is an opposing bad - that's obvious enough in life. The bad in this world don't want people to believe in God. If there was no opposition or bad in this world, God would DEFinitely be more 'obvious'. In response to your comment on events happening 'with or without God', you're wrong. God is very much involved. And sad things happen, but God ALWAYS has a REASON for it. Everything has a reason. You can't chafe against the unfortunate things and point the finger at God. (After all, to point the finger at God is acknowledging there is one.) God gives each individual things they must go through in life because they NEED those things. Just relax and stop trying to blame God for everything. Just try it. God allows bad things to happen but He can turn them around for good when people trust in Him and try to learn through the tough times. Did you honestly want a life free of pain? Are you one of those people who are constantly chafing against hard times? You don't really strike me as that type, but you seem quick to blame it all on God or perhaps the lack of God's existence as you see it. Here, I have some good quotes for you by Helen Keller.
"We could never learn to be brave and patient if there were only joy in the world."
"Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it."
"Character cannot be developed in ease and quiet. Only rhough experience of trial and suffering canthe soul be strengthened, ambition inspired, and success achieved."
THERE. How can you expect God to leave us on the earth and never let us experience things that will strengthen us? The difference between you and I is that you chafe against Him for the bad. I don't accept the lot of a victim. I ask God for help, accept the bad, and get beyond it. It's as simple as that.
"...isn't it the absolute HEIGHT of human arrogance to assume that an omniscient omnipresent omnipotent being actually runs around and listens to everybody?"
But He does listen, because He cares. That's what seems so overwhelming because why should God love a sinner like you and me? But He does. He loves you more than you know. Just because you don't believe in Him doesn't mean He's not there.
"It's an amazingly arrogant assumption to not only a) assume the existence of this improbable uber-god and THEN b) assume that he spends all his time being so intricately tied up in the affairs of people praying for a little bit of sunshine for a soccer match, or for petrol prices to go down. Breathtaking arrogance."
Hah. I liked that. 'Breathtaking arrogance.' Frankly, Voltare44, I'm assuming nothing. You don't believe it, but that doesn't mean God doesn't care about the little things. God understands that the little things we go through on a daily basis are sometimes just as hard as the big things. How can we expect God to help us in the big things if He WON'T help us in the little things? That' why people want to believe in God every day of their life - not JUST when they get cancer or their little brother gets chicken pox. You think it's absurd, I know, but praying is really just talking to God. You think God doesn't care or have time to hear your prayer, don't you? Have you ever tried? He does have time. He has all the time in the world. Hello, He's GOD, he's not a human. Why would we worship God if He had our same limitations?
"Sounds like you're faith is on shaky ground, actually." Hah. Far from it. You wish, though, huh?
"You don't need to spend all this time wrestling wondering about why God does this and not that..." I agree. You don't need to spend time wrestling with things you have no power over. But it does help to look back and see that God had a purpose in the things He allowed in your life.
"No. It doesn't. You see, that's the whole point of the excercise. If you pray fervently to that paperweight, the paperweight can answer your prayers in two ways. Yes - your prayer is immediately answered; or No, nothing happens, and the paperweight clearly had a better plan for you."
Really, Voltare44. You're endowing that paper weight with far too much absurdity. You're trying to point out that God is a figment of people's imagination, aren't you? Hmm... then why do people dedicate their lives to God? Just all of them have lively imaginations? You seriously believe all of them are impressionable, don't you? They just didn't make it in the field of science so that makes them one more nitwit who doesn't have the brains, but has the pure unadultrated love of imagination, eh? Dear dear Voltare44. You have it all figure out, don't you?
"And yet, everybody prays, and nothing remarkable happens..." How do you know that? Just because I haven't come forward with 17 years of powerful prayer experience doesn't mean God doesn't answer prayer remarkably in lives all across the world. Have you just not run into enough people who will tell you about what God has done for them?
"I see it all the time. I see millions of people in the Arab world dedicating their lives in horrible ways to glorifying god - only it's presumably the wrong God. What do I say? Whoops?" Um, no. You realize that the god they are dedicating themselves is to is a god of hate - a false god. There are false gods in plenty of peoples imaginations - perhaps even your own. Maybe you wouldn't admit it but I would fondly doubt you don't view science and fate and possibly yourself as a kind of 'god'. What do you believe in ... anything at all then? Nothing? Now you're saying what makes you so sure YOUR God is the real God? Remember that time I told you (err I think it was you) that I had a specific time when I talked to God my first time and told Him I believed in Him, and I was sorry for my sins, and I wanted Him to come in to my heart? Eh, ring a bell? Well, ever since then God is very real. It's nothing you can mistake for traditions or mere 'religion' or some kind of rule book like the Koran, etc. You honestly KNOW God. You feel Him in you heart. There is an unbelievable faith that you don't have to create. You know it with all your heart. See why I am so sincere? It's not because my parents have always taught me this. It is because I have it for myself.
Now I really am a hopeless cause aren't I? lol. Why are you even messing with me? Are you even reading this? Or do you just looking for the loop-holes so you can pounce on them and somehow 'proove' to yourself that God can't possible be real. Because, honestly, it's pretty pointless. Even if you out-talk me, it doesn't make Him any less real. ;)
It's pretty late, I better turn in. Best to you in - Australia, is it? For some reason I was thinking Canada... Thanks for bearing with me. I realize I try many good peoples' cases. You're not the first and you won't be the last, if it's any comfort.
ttyl
Seriously, Voltare44, you're exhausting me. I come home from work and this is what I get, eh?
Oops, hehe. Yeah. Sorry! Actually, no I am sorry, really! I'm not always sure why I'm on here, except that I enjoy reading your site really. And I'd rather keep things friendly than just annoy you.
This is how you described God? "God is the sort of indescribable-mysterious-intelligent-entity that is content to twiddle his thumbs." How can you be so sure, Voltare44?
I'm not "sure." I'm merely pointing out that I see a dichotomy between what religion would have me accept: that there is a God who created and cares for humans, who plays an active role in our affairs; and what I actually see in the world. I say god is content to twiddle his thumbs, because, either he is doing that, or he is actively and deliberately inflicting misery suffering and death on people, christians and non-christians alike, all around the world. I can perhaps stomach a Deist view of a God who created everything but doesn't get involved; but it sounds like you advocate some sort of panglossian philosophy (you should read Candide!) that everything is for the best and everything has a reason - with the implication therefore that God is active in every single decision that people make, and in every single misfortune that befalls any human; that therefore, God and only God is singularly responsible for all the suffering in the world.
How can you so callously shake your fist at God and His word?
Because, to be honest, if I actually did believe that God is responsible for all the evil and suffering in the world (as you seem to imply), then I think the only appropriate and morally justifiable action would be to shake your fist at him! To say "thankyou God for all the terrible things that you do" just seems wrong. I wouldn't thank a fellow human for doing something terrible and callous. So why should I put my moral judgement on hold when dealing with God? I guess it's about submission. I don't think I could submit to an entity that behaves in such a way.
My cynicism suggests also that, when viewed from a distance, I think people that submit to God are in fact usually submitting to a man-made hierachy of some sort: they are submitting to the church; tithing their income; seeking judgements on how to live their lives from the church - judgements on how to interpret the bible from the church, which ultimately is interpreted by people. Some people put their faith in one churches interpretation of scripture, others trust in another interpretation. In the end, it seems they're not submitting to God, just submitting themselves to a hierachy that will tell them how to think.
As it IS, I don't believe there IS a God, so I'm not actually shaking my fist at anyone, except possibly the people that claim to represent him.
You wonder why I am sure when here I have God's word to read more about God - who is in essence three-in-one... not just man, not just spirit, not just father of Jesus... in fact all three.
The reason I wonder it is because in the church that I grew up in, at least in the years before I left it, we were taught that the bible has to be examined critically, and that it is not actually God's word, but unique witness to the people and deeds of God, but a wholly human witness. I guess this is a neo-orthodox view, but it makes sense. It doesn't mean that nothing can be learnt from the bible, and it makes sure the bible is the centrepiece of the christian religion: but it at least acknowledges the fact that it was written by all sorts of different people over a long period of time, and edited by all sorts of people, and copied and translated and re-translated with all sorts of errors and adjustments in the process. I think any study of the bible simply has to acknowledge that, as that's just what happened.
I don't accept that it is God's word. Why are there other gospels, other eyewitness accounts about Jesus, surely the most important event in Christian history, not included in the bible? What translation of the bible do you use, and how does that affect your interpretation? Etc etc. So I don't accept that you can be fully "sure" when I don't believe you actually have God's word.
Interestingly, you earlier said that Islam was a false God etc. But the CLAIM made about the Koran is that it is the actual word of God, that it was directly transmitted to the prophet Muhammed. Now, in some ways, the Koran has a BETTER claim to being the word of god, because of the amazing story of an illiterate man receiving revelation from the Angel Gabriel, and writing it down - a good claim to being the word of God, as opposed to the Bible, which is clearly written by all sorts of different people with all sorts of different motives. Why should I accept the story of a burning bush in the old testament, or Gabriel appearing to Mary, and not accept the story of Gabriel appearing to Muhammed? Where do I draw the line in accepting people's claims about the word of god?
How can you be so sure when all you have is human supposition. Speak of 'supposing'. You have nothing behind you but your own dogmatic cynicsm and your cynical friends!
Well, I think that's partly the point: we are BOTH relying on our own human supposition, it's just I'm the only one who will ackowledge it fully. You only have your human suppositions about what is true/isn't true about God/Bible/Religion etc. We all make suppositions all the time, but I don't claim to "know" that something is true.
Atheism is a sliding scale. In the truest sense, nobody is or CAN be a true atheist. There always exists the possibility that, despite how much you think there is not a God, that there is one. But, I can safely say that I am so agnostic as to essentially be an atheist. I can't claim to know. All I can do is try and explain why I think the way I do, and what the problems are that I have with religion in general - and do note that nothing I say is ever an attack specifically on Christianity; when you say I shake my fist at God, I'm actually also shaking it at every God throughout history, from Odin to L Ron Hubbard's nonsense. As the old saying goes, YOU are an atheist about ALL of those gods - you don't believe in any of them. Atheism actually comes completely naturally to you, every day you go around not believing in all sorts of Gods - I just go one God further. It happens to be your God, but I could be having this conversation with a Hindu, and then would you be defending the Hindi religion?
At what point did your suppositions become truth?"
I find I'm at the point where I can say nothing right. If I make dogmatic statements, you will focus on the fact that I believe something dogmatically without hard evidence. If I ask you to suppose that something is true, you demand for me to say something that is dogmatically true. Come on... give me so elbow room and just READ it for once.
Well, I did read it. You asked me to suppose various things about God's omnipotence. I started supposing, interested to see where your argument would go - but it didn't go anywhere, it went to "But it's true." I can suppose for the sake of an argument that something is true, but simply telling me that something is true isn't really an argument.
"We could suppose all sorts of things: that he's omniscient but not omnipresent: that would explain why he doesn't ALWAYS answer prayers..." I already told you, dear Voltare44. He does ALWAYS answer prayers. He just doesn't always answer prayers the WAY people want Him to.
Again, for me this doesn't square with Jesus's claims - in the Word of God bible. He says "ask and you shall receive" WITH NO QUALIFIERS. It doesn't happen. But that's by the by. My main point is this: If I accept that it is POSSIBLE that God is actually answering prayers, even if he does nothing, or does the complete opposite; then you ought to be able to accept that it is POSSIBLE that there is actually nothing happening, and we only interpret something that happens as an answer to a prayer.
Both patterns have exactly the same evidence for their behaviour. Lets say for the sake of a cheap and easy example that by brother is in real financial strife, and I pray for God in his mercy to help him - a typical prayer scenario I would imagine. Now, if nothing happens, and my brother is evicted, and dies of pneumonia, then it is possible that that was God's decision, and it's also possible that it just happened. If my brother receives $300 more than he expected in his tax refund, he is temporarily spared, and struggles on for a couple more years. Again, that could have been God, or it could have just happened. Or, he wins the lotto the next day. Again, that could have been God, or it could have just happened. Now, this isn't an argument about what is right - no sensible God would answer every prayer for money by giving them a winning lotto ticket, and that doesn't happen, and we know that people who pray for money probably oughtn't have prayed for it anyway. Further more, had I prayed to my paperweight, or had I not prayed at all, all of those scenarios would still be possible. The point being, all of those scenarios, it COULD have been God, or it COULD have just been things happening. If there IS a God, then he answers prayers in a way inextinguishable from what normal chance and the world happening would produced. To claim that God DOES answer prayers is on tricky ground: you can CLAIM that God is answering those prayers in whatever way he likes: I can equally CLAIM that the paper weight on my table is answering those prayers in whatever way it likes. The onus, I'm afraid, is on those who claim the power of prayer, to prove it. It's such a fundamental part of the religion, and yet.... The only thing that might prove it is were the prayer to be answered with something genuinely miraculous. And that, as far as we can tell, simply doesn't happen. Otherwise, it's EQUALLY as possible that it's NOT God doing the answering. And, from my point of view, given my other problems with the existence of God, it's MORE probable that it's not God.
And yes God DOES glorify himself, and that IS okay. What, do we - the creation - demand that God serve US? God helps us in multitudes of ways that we don't even deserve, and then we have the audacity to wake up in the morning and shake our fists at God for not doing more for us?
I can't really answer that. I don't LIKE it. If we are supposed to have a "realtionship" with God, then a relationship is a two-way process, and any decent person's moral instinct should be to call God to account on his behaviour - not to us, but to others. Callous death and misery around the world: people, families, living and experiencing, and suffering, and then experiencing horrible death. Babies dying from disease - all apparently God's direct and deliberate plan. This all ends up being a theological questions though, which, while interesting, is difficult to discuss if you don't actually believe in a God. Given how complicated it is trying to justify it, and how accepting it as "God's plan" and everything is for the best seems too callous and shallow; it simply doesn't make any sense, unless you decide to not think about it. It makes much more sense to me to recognise that a world without a God would look exactly like the one we're in now - indiscriminate suffering, arguments over divine "truths" and "revealed" teachings.
Maybe there WAS a God, and now there's not. Is that possible? There was a great tele-film on not too long ago, called "The Second Coming", an english drama. It was about the Second coming of Jesus - literally; a man woke up and WAS the son of God; he performed miracles, he turned night into day, healed people, various things. And said he was bringing the third testament. To cut a long film short, the third testament turned out to be the death of Jesus, live on telvision, with the message from God that "ok humanity, you're doing ok, you're on your own now, I'm not going to be around any more, you have the power to solve your own problems, get on with it." Weird show, and not actually relevant to our discussion.... so not sure why i mentioned it. Other than I guess the intruiging possibility that we have been abandoned by God - some people believe that, no? But the message of the film was uplifting, not depressing: we have the power to get on with it, and make life better - the ultimate call to meliorism.
God created us. It makes sense that if he created us in His image, He wants us to be a reflection of Him. God doesn't pop out of magic-lamps in public settings to make everybody gasp and suddenly "believe" in God. God asks only faith of His creation. God asks for belief in Him.
Well, two assumptions: that God created us, in the face of the strong evidence to suggest that we weren't "created", but evolved. That's a whole other argument (and I believe, where we started!)
The second being about God not popping out of magic lamps. That's convenient. It is a convenience that religion needs to explain the otherwise strange non-appearence of God. This is a God that spent virtually the entire bible (or so we are told to believe), how ever many thousand years of history, wandering around, parting seas, appearing in burning bushes, speaking to people, healing people, rasising the dead, sending visions etc. And now he doesn't. This is a God who is omnipotent, and omnipresent, surely a good excuse for turning up occasionally - and yet it is YOU the HUMAN who chooses to limit God's power. "God doesn't pop out of magic-lamps in public settings to make everybody gasp and suddenly "believe" in God." Who says he doesn't? You do. The Bible says otherwise. It's a pretty obvious question to ask: Why? Why doesn't he? The obvious answer is because he isn't actually there. I'm sure there are others, but I've yet to see a good one. "God moves in mysterious ways" is a brilliant cop-out answer for lots of things: I think it's a euphemism for "I refuse to think about that questions implications."
"I just honestly believe that an omniscient omnipresent omnipotent god would be perhaps SLIGHTLy more obvious in the world? Even just a tiny bit? Given that everything that happens in the world generally CAN be explained by chance/non chance events: weather patterns, a bus running someone over, someone not dying of cancer because he got good early treatment, then why do we have to put a God in there. If we put such a powerful god in the picture, wouldn't we expect the picture to be at least a BIT different?"
I don't know - do you not believe there's any kind of spiritual world?
Interesting. I waver. I have times when I think there may be a life after death for the soul. I think the concepts of reincarnation are interesting, and more "believably" reasonable than the bizarre concepts of heaven and everlasting damnation. I have friends who have had quite intense spiritual experiences, involving communications with deceased loved-ones etc, which I can't help but try and accept, because they are friends, but also view with skepticism. I'm well aware there are plenty of physiological explanations in the brain and dream-states etc that can explain all sorts of things, so it's difficult. The hardest thing to assess is experience. Everybody has experiences, and they are internal and individual and impenetrable to an outsider, and they can't be replicated, and they are subject to interpretation. Like a Near-Death-Experience: when a christian has a near death experience, they "see" angels, or the white lights of heaven etc. When a muslim or a hindu has a near death experience, they "see" other things, that affirm their religion for them. I can't help but suspect that everybody sees the same things, lights and blurry vision, which they all interpret in their own ways. Incidentally, all the "syptoms" of a near death experience (tunnel of light, visions of family, figures, soothing relaxing feeling etc) can all be replicated with a drug that stimulates the release of the same chemicals in the brain that are released at death. So we can (probably) safely say that those experiences are not unique to death, rather byproducts of an essentially "hallucinogenic" chemical that the brain produces when it is low on oxygen etc etc ie at death.
It would be nice to think there was some sort of afterlife. Of course, I think that's what all religion boils down to in the end: fear of the unknown, and peoples attempts to explain it (and then their attempts to control others with those explanations.) Whatever there is after we die, we simply don't know, although we make up all sorts of stories to convince us that it will be ok. The concept of nothing after death - genuine nothing - is genuinely frightening, and simply unimaginable how it might be experienced; although I am not too worried about it: it happens to everybody, and lets face it, I was dead for millions and millions of years before I was alive, and it didn't bother me then, so why should it bother me in the future?
I don't think though that I should put my spiritual hopes in a questionably edited ancient book, that only a third of the world believes in. While I have a life, no matter what happens next, I want to make it enjoyable, I want to make it fulfilling, I want to leave the world in a better place for my children, and I want to cause as little suffering and hurt to other people as possible.
Perhaps the afterlife is like the author and humourist Terry Pratchett suggests: your afterlife depends on what you believe in. In which case, I'd proabably better not be a christian!!!!
Obviously SINCE there is a God (there - dogmatic) then there is Satan.
Brilliantly dogmatic ;) !
Satan is equally confusing. It seems to me that again, God's motives are questionable. Go must have created Satan - he created everything. God MUST have the power to destroy Satan, for if he didn't, a) god would not be omnipotent, and b) satan would in effect be more powerful than God. So again, it's a conscious decision by God to ALLOW Satan to exist, and ALLOW him to wield influence. Furthermore, in your "everything is ultimately for the best/god's plan" view, in which God makes happen/allows to happen all the suffering and evil in the world, then essentially Satan IS God, or may as well be. Satan is part of God's mysterious plan, something he created and intended, and every day consciously chooses not to destroy/control.
Where there is good, there is an opposing bad - that's obvious enough in life.
Not really obvious. There's just lots of lots of shades of grey - one persons evil is another persons reward. There's rarely any obvious opposites, good and bad.
The bad in this world don't want people to believe in God. If there was no opposition or bad in this world, God would DEFinitely be more 'obvious'.
I don't consider myself a bad person. But I would encourage people not to believe in ANY God. So I'm bad? And if we all unanimously agreed and believed in God, would that even prove God's existence, or make him more "obvious"? It would just be a whole load of people agreeing with each other, and (in principle) being nice to each other. Doesn't make it true - even if EVERYONE believed it, doesn't make it true. The only thing that would be make him more "obvious" would be an appearance of some sort, a miraculous something. Every day he chooses not to. People kill each other over the "wrong" religion, and God chooses every day not to reveal himself, to stop people killing in his name, or in the name of a false God. Why? They truly are mysterious ways.
In response to your comment on events happening 'with or without God', you're wrong. God is very much involved. And sad things happen, but God ALWAYS has a REASON for it. Everything has a reason. You can't chafe against the unfortunate things and point the finger at God. (After all, to point the finger at God is acknowledging there is one.)
That's why I don't point the finger at God, I only do that when people ask me accept that there is one. As soon as I start to accept that, then the finger must be pointed squarely at God - which is exactly what you do, except you just accept that it's all OK.
Again, you sound very much like Pangloss/Voltaire: everything is for the best in this best of all possible worlds. That's all very well as a philosophy, but it makes god into the cruelest, callousest tyrant imaginable.
God gives each individual things they must go through in life because they NEED those things. Just relax and stop trying to blame God for everything. Just try it. God allows bad things to happen but He can turn them around for good when people trust in Him and try to learn through the tough times.
I'm not blaming God for everything! I don't even think there IS a God! You're the one blaming God - you're the one who says it's all part of his plan, that he planned it all along. I know it's nice to think that someones suffering can lead people to a better life. If there are people suffering - like the big earthquake in China - then it's amazing what that can do to band people together for the better. good things come out of it - friendships formed, things achieved, lives saved etc. But it's still God that buried all those innocent children under the rubble in the first place, isn't it? Does God sacrifice innocents, so that we can feel better by trying to help them? I don't buy it.
Did you honestly want a life free of pain? Are you one of those people who are constantly chafing against hard times? You don't really strike me as that type, but you seem quick to blame it all on God or perhaps the lack of God's existence as you see it.
Once again, you're the one laying responsibilty for hard times and suffering at God's feet - me, I just think things happen. That's not blaming anyone, except sometimes blaming people if they are dishonest, or greedy. I'm not chafing at hard times, because I know the only person who can turn things around is myself. I know I can help others. I KNOW noone will have a life free of pain. I'm not the one who's always praying to get God to intervene in my/someone elses pain.
Here, I have some good quotes for you by Helen Keller.
"We could never learn to be brave and patient if there were only joy in the world."
That's true. But it doesn't need God to be true.
"Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it."
True, but doesn't need God to be true.
"Character cannot be developed in ease and quiet. Only rhough experience of trial and suffering canthe soul be strengthened, ambition inspired, and success achieved."
Yes, these are nice motivational quotes, but they don't need God to be true. It's just what happens when people live - they learn things from past mistakes, they accept suffering.
THERE. How can you expect God to leave us on the earth and never let us experience things that will strengthen us? The difference between you and I is that you chafe against Him for the bad. I don't accept the lot of a victim. I ask God for help, accept the bad, and get beyond it. It's as simple as that.
Yes, but I think it reflects a certain conscious/subconscious religious arrogance to think that suffering and bad things are somehow for your benefit. So when a young child like Baby Ben dies, instead of lives, as 1 in 2 babies like him do, given that God is choosing to save Baby Ben, then God is also choosing to let Baby Rupert die - because he wants to give Ruperts parents a bad experience to strengthen them? And God does this by putting an innocent baby through such suffering and sudden death?
I don't chafe against him for the bad because I don't believe he's there at all. I accept it as things that happen - I have amazing "comfort" in the knowledge that people die because of illnesses, microbes, diseases, accidents, natural disasters and old age; and I have amazing comfort that I don't NEED to try and reconcile the crap that gets flung around all the time about a "loving god" that doesn't actually reflect the world. I have amazing comfort knowing that people are working tirelessly every day to MAKE LIFE better, for everyone. I know that people have the potential to cure disease, they have already eradicated some. They have the potential to save babies like Ben as you have witnessed, a baby who would no doubt have died 50 years ago no matter how much people prayed.
I know we can make peoples lives better, by working out how to share our resources, by educating as many people in the world to the highest standard possible.
There are alternatives to religious morals. Given that we have such an amazingly wide choice of religious morals to choose from, each with no particular claim to authority other than choosing to interpret/reinterpret different bible/koran/talmud verses etc; I can choose one religion that will tell me homosexuality is evil, I can choose another that will tell me god loves and welcomes homosexuals. I can choose religions that denigrate women, or religions that celebrate them. I believe that there actually IS an alternative moral system that we can apply, and teach our children, without the hokum and shackles of religion. We can work out morals for the future based on basic ethical principles - chiefly of all, the golden rule attributed to Jesus, but of course found in all sorts of different religions, and non-religious societys, and in the animal kingdom sometimes to: do unto others as you would have done unto you. The ethical question for me is always "what is the course of action that will cause the least suffering to the parties involved?" I think if children can be thought to think through questions like that, to recognise the grey areas that surround most ethical decisions, we have a way forward to actually become better people overall, to each other, and to our environment. I think if we have top-down conflicting "rules" from a questionable authority: "homosexuality is a sin", "humans are better than animals" then we are really stuck in a very negative place. Anyway, I digress....
"...isn't it the absolute HEIGHT of human arrogance to assume that an omniscient omnipresent omnipotent being actually runs around and listens to everybody?"
But He does listen, because He cares. That's what seems so overwhelming because why should God love a sinner like you and me? But He does. He loves you more than you know. Just because you don't believe in Him doesn't mean He's not there.
Sorry, argument appealing from personal credulity. "He does listen" - statement of fact, not supported by evidence. "Because he cares" - statement of fact, not supported by evidence. Etc. Just becuase you BELIEVE in him doesn't mean he IS there. Plenty of people who believe in those "false gods of hate" you mention below would say exactly the same thing - Andi, just because you don't believe in Allah, it doesn't mean he's not there. It's just words, it's actually amazingly meaningless in so many ways, even though it SEEMS to have meaning and give "comfort."
"It's an amazingly arrogant assumption to not only a) assume the existence of this improbable uber-god and THEN b) assume that he spends all his time being so intricately tied up in the affairs of people praying for a little bit of sunshine for a soccer match, or for petrol prices to go down. Breathtaking arrogance."
Hah. I liked that. 'Breathtaking arrogance.' Frankly, Voltare44, I'm assuming nothing. You don't believe it, but that doesn't mean God doesn't care about the little things. God understands that the little things we go through on a daily basis are sometimes just as hard as the big things. How can we expect God to help us in the big things if He WON'T help us in the little things? That' why people want to believe in God every day of their life - not JUST when they get cancer or their little brother gets chicken pox. You think it's absurd, I know, but praying is really just talking to God. You think God doesn't care or have time to hear your prayer, don't you? Have you ever tried? He does have time. He has all the time in the world. Hello, He's GOD, he's not a human. Why would we worship God if He had our same limitations?
I really have to point out the contradictions in what you say to an otherwise intelligent girl like yourself?
Very well: "Why would we worship god if he had our same limitations?" Then why do you spend so much time limiting him? Everything believers write about the quandry of loving-god vs. suffering seems to be nothing but humans making excuses for god not excercising the powers that those same believers are perfectly happy to ascribe to god. "Ask and ye shall receive."
How does it work in the bible then? God's word says:
"Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!"
Should it actually read "Ask, and something might be given to you; seek, and you will find more questions and answers that actually don't make sense; knock, and god won't even knock back. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Because God is not a man remember, it's OK that God actually does this REGULARLY, even though he has promised otherwise."
Bible:
"For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you."
Reality: "For, if I am to be actually truthful as opposed to just say 'truly I say to you' if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it wont move because, well that's impossible: there's a whole load of things that are impossible to you, and always will be, whether you like it or not."
I mean, this is Jesus saying "nothing will be impossible to you" - he allegedly did some pretty impossible things, so surely he knows the meaning of the words he's using, so perhaps he's just lying? "All sorts of things will be impossible to you."
Bible: "I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. _You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it._"
This is the Bible that you spend so much time worrying about that we don't take it literally enough: "No, you can't read Genesis as a metaphor, that's ACTUALLY WHAT HAPPENED, and all those fossils you see are result of Noahs flood because it's in the Bible, and you MUST IGNORE all the evidence to the contrary because THE BIBLE IS THE INFALLIBLE WORD OF GOD and must be interpreted literally, it answers all these questions."
So when Jesus - God himself, no less, says "You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it" - if I interpret that literally, then I have some serious questions. People the world over every single day ask for all sorts of things - "anything" is not a very limited word, Jesus is pretty specific here - and nothing happens, even though Jesus is even more specific and says "and I will do it." I mean, either we take the bible literally, or we don't? Why is it religious people try and force their bizarrely implausible literal interpretations of Genesis on the rest of the world, whereas if we try and apply the same logic to some of the other fundamentals of their religious text, they start going "oh er, well you see God only answers requests in his own mysterious way, Jesus wasn't being LITERAL, you have to interpret his words." Bollocks and rubbish.
And you say praying is really talking to God - brilliant; until God actually says something back, even a "hello, how are you" I can only suspect you are talking to yourself. It's hardly got to be stimulating conversation, is it?
"Sounds like you're faith is on shaky ground, actually." Hah. Far from it. You wish, though, huh?
Of course I do. What, do you think I HOPE that you have your head in the sand for the rest of your life?
"You don't need to spend all this time wrestling wondering about why God does this and not that..." I agree. You don't need to spend time wrestling with things you have no power over. But it does help to look back and see that God had a purpose in the things He allowed in your life.
One can always look back over ones life so far and say "oh, if I hadn't chosen that, then this wouldn't have happened; or if that bad thing hadn't happened, then this good thing wouldn't have happened." So what? Once again, no requirement for God. And as I have said - I'm not wrestling. I don't believe. I think it's hokum, there's nothing to wrestle about. I'm merely articulating the questions that any believer would have to wrestle with every day, if they had any intelligence, and a modicum of decency - they would recognise these problems and ask these questions.
"No. It doesn't. You see, that's the whole point of the excercise. If you pray fervently to that paperweight, the paperweight can answer your prayers in two ways. Yes - your prayer is immediately answered; or No, nothing happens, and the paperweight clearly had a better plan for you."
Really, Voltare44. You're endowing that paper weight with far too much absurdity. You're trying to point out that God is a figment of people's imagination, aren't you? Hmm... then why do people dedicate their lives to God? Just all of them have lively imaginations?
No, I'm endowing God with absurdity by comparing him to the paperweight. Both behave in exactly the same fashion, when prayed to, their behaviour is indestinguishable: you only CHOOSE to ascribe whatever happens/doesn't happen to "God". It could just as easily be attributed to the omniscient paperweight, and we would not be able to tell the difference.
Of course I'm trying to point out that God is a figment of people's imagination. We've been here before, but God is just one way of trying to explain the world: so many things that used to be attributed to God are now understood seperately from God. He does not hurl thunderbolts. People don't have "demons" they have chemical imbalances in their brains. Why do people dedicate their lives to God? There are so many reasons. Fear is often the biggest: fear of Hell specifically in the Christian religion. Religion offers all sorts of comforts and community-benefits. Peer-pressure: if you're with a load of people praising Jesus, you can't help but feel uncomfortable not-doing-so; how do you escape it? Best to go along with it. Many people just like "the thought that there's something bigger out there" and so trot along to church every few sundays and mumble through some hymns because it makes them feel better. There's all sorts of christians, all sorts of religions. Generally, people ignore most of the actual prescriptions in the Bible - if you are to truly dedicate your life to god, then shouldn't you be slaughtering goats on a regular basis, or whatever? Why do so many people dedicate their lives to OTHER Gods, when YOUR God is so CLEARLY not a figment of your imagination? Why are there so many people who dedicate their lives to God, and then turn out to have been making masses of money on the side from their congregations, or using prositutes, or raping altar-boys? Is it God they are dedicating their lives to, or the trappings of religion, and how can you tell the difference?
You seriously believe all of them are impressionable, don't you?
How many percentage of Americans believe in UFO abductions? Something like 60%?? What is the percentage of Americans who believe that Barack Obama swore into office on the Koran? What is the number of children who believe in Santa Claus? People ARE impressionable!!! The key with religion is generally they make the impression at a young age. It's brilliantly self perpetuating: Santa Claus becomes clearly false when children see multiple santas in the shopping mall, or catch their parents stuffing the presents under the tree. Christianty has so many carefully contrived messages that keep it self-perpetuating. Anyone who asks questions: "god moves in mysterious ways." "God is remains hidden until he chooses to show himself." "God answers prayers in the way he chooses - not the way you might expect." "Believe in God or go to Hell for all eternity." All of these add up to pretty powerful messages. Other religions have them too. Remember, you are only a Christian because that's where you were born. Each religion out there, Islam, hinduism, buddhis, chinese traditions, various african religions, sikhism, judaism, baha'i, jainism, shinto, zoroastrianism, scientology, EVERY one of those religions has similar carefully worded messages that perpetuate it: each of those religions has some amazingly "profound" things to say about the universe and there being a greater power, and life after death, and how to live your life, and why there is suffering, and good and evil - they all have their own equally powerful and vivid "bible" or texts; and yet you reject without even THINKING EVERY SINGLE ONE of those religions and their Gods. And people growing up in those religions do exactly the same thing: they reject without even thinking every single one of the other religions including christianity as false gods, and that their text is the one true sacred text.
And yet you as a christian constantly appeal to the bible, and expect me to accept that, when you yourself choose what you regard as literal in your holy text.
They just didn't make it in the field of science so that makes them one more nitwit who doesn't have the brains, but has the pure unadultrated love of imagination, eh? Dear dear Voltare44. You have it all figure out, don't you?
Eh? _I_ didn't make it in the field of science, I'm a musician not a scientist! I have to be honest that, perhaps, if I had my time again, and I hadn't been brought up around so much religion, I would choose to be a scientist in future, and try and make the world a better place. Certainly, if I ever need to "retrain" (if my music career doesn't work out) then I will be very seriously considering a science degree.
I don't have anything figured out. Noone has. That's the point. It's the religions who think they have it figured out. People go to a church because they think that a church has at least some things figured out - that the church can explain the world to them. They wouldn't go to a church that just said "actually, we don't know anything about anything, we don't even know if there's a God." Instead, they proscribe particular behaviours, punish people for non-conformity and argue with each other over theological interpretations: arguing so useless to be akin, as once famously described, to arguing over how many angels can fit on a pin-head.
"And yet, everybody prays, and nothing remarkable happens..." How do you know that? Just because I haven't come forward with 17 years of powerful prayer experience doesn't mean God doesn't answer prayer remarkably in lives all across the world. Have you just not run into enough people who will tell you about what God has done for them?
I'm almost disappointed. The one thing that is hardest to argue against is people personal experience: and yet, you DON'T have even a single example from 17 years of powerful prayer experience? I always run into stories about people saying what God has done for them: They almost always are along the lines of your Baby Ben story or similar: praying to God and thanking God for a "miracle" without acknowledging that actually it's not a miracle as there was already a good chance that it would happen anyway - and further more, blithely disregarding the darker connotation of what they say: that if they ascribe the "miracle" survival to God, then by default they must also ascribe the "tragic death" of other people to God. But people don't usually THINK about that: only when questioned do they start to come up with nebulous and dismissive things like "Oh, it must all be part of God's plan."
"I see it all the time. I see millions of people in the Arab world dedicating their lives in horrible ways to glorifying god - only it's presumably the wrong God. What do I say? Whoops?" Um, no. You realize that the god they are dedicating themselves is to is a god of hate - a false god. There are false gods in plenty of peoples imaginations - perhaps even your own.
Oh, whoops then. See there you have it: "my god is right, yours is false" even though you know nothing about the other god, and that they think the exact same thing about you."
Once again, extremely EXTREMELY important point::: I think we are BOTH atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
Maybe you wouldn't admit it but I would fondly doubt you don't view science and fate and possibly yourself as a kind of 'god'. What do you believe in ... anything at all then? Nothing?
Nope. Completely wrong. Science has none of the properties that are ascribed to deities. I don't worship it. I dont pray to it. I don't make sacrifices to it or for it. Science doesn't tell me what to do, it only discovers facts about the world: how things work. From that, I can make any damned decision I want, but science certainly doesn't tell me what to do; what it CAN do is inform my decision making, so that decisions are made based on as much evidence as possible, rather than ignornace and/or wishful thinking. Science inherently acknowledges it is wrong: Science is often about trying to prove other people as wrong as possible. The whole process is "how would I know if I were wrong?" and using that as a way of testing the world. Science is open to being rewritten: a religion is not. Science doesn't have prophets/people to worship: there are famous scientists, but they are revered for what they have contributed; and what they have contributed has been improved upon/re-worked over future generations, not taken as "gospel". Finally, I just don't DO science. I'm not a scientist. I read about on and off because it's interesting. If science were a religion, I would have to be reading about 300 complicated journals a day just to keep up!
Now you're saying what makes you so sure YOUR God is the real God? Remember that time I told you (err I think it was you) that I had a specific time when I talked to God my first time and told Him I believed in Him, and I was sorry for my sins, and I wanted Him to come in to my heart? Eh, ring a bell? Well, ever since then God is very real.
I know, I know. But you were, what, 9. When I first saw David Copperfield fly, I was about 10 or 11. I truly believed he could. I could not see any other way. I went home and I tried to fly myself. It didn't work, but I still believed. Oh how young and impressionable I was. I can't speak for your story. But I'm afraid it's just not convincing. He didn't answer back, ergo anything you felt is JUST AS LIKELY to have been your own feelings/imagination. Not I'm not saying it WAS: it is POSSIBLE it was God. But, given my above diatribe, forgive me if I don't express healthy skepticism and repeat, "anything you felt is JUST AS LIKELY to have been your own feelings/imagination." Sorry. I can't give you any more than that.
It's nothing you can mistake for traditions or mere 'religion' or some kind of rule book like the Koran, etc. You honestly KNOW God. You feel Him in you heart. There is an unbelievable faith that you don't have to create. You know it with all your heart. See why I am so sincere? It's not because my parents have always taught me this. It is because I have it for myself.
That's good for you. Really, really good.
That's again another ultimate point: I actually DON'T MIND, although I think you are wrong. You can be as religious as you want, as long as you dont expect people to start teaching biblical creationism in school science class; which is where all this started.
Now I really am a hopeless cause aren't I? lol. Why are you even messing with me? Are you even reading this? Or do you just looking for the loop-holes so you can pounce on them and somehow 'proove' to yourself that God can't possible be real. Because, honestly, it's pretty pointless. Even if you out-talk me, it doesn't make Him any less real. ;)
It's related. I enjoy reading your blog because you are a good, intelligent writer. I just can't help but leap in, on issues that I think are perpetuating lazy thinking. I view prayer as lazy thinking - sorry, I do. That's how this particular long conversation about religion started. As a journalist, you ought not to be able to get away with it :P
Next time, I sincerely hope to refrain, and comment on your website on something non-religious!
It's pretty late, I better turn in. Best to you in - Australia, is it? For some reason I was thinking Canada... Thanks for bearing with me. I realize I try many good peoples' cases. You're not the first and you won't be the last, if it's any comfort.
No you don't try me - it's actually a pleasure, because you're not rude, and you try to argue intelligently, unlike some conversations I've had. And it's not Australia at the moment: I'm in the UK. Can't seem to stay put at the moment....
Oh, and, er..... apologies for the length...... er..... anyway...!!
Oh, and just came across this when I was looking for a quote earlier: you'll HATE it!!!!:
www.godisimaginary.com
Well Voltare44, You've officially exhausted my energy just reading your last comment. It was like 15 or 16 pages! I ended up printing it out, and highlighting the parts I disagreed with or didn't quite understand. But I'm not looking at it all now so I'm not even sure what I want to start on. But it has set me to thinking for quite some time, and I decided that you're right. I've had lots of answers to small, personal prayers, but they're pretty vague. I could tell you some, but you would easily be able to say 'well that could have been God or that could've been about to happen anyways'. Now, I believe that the things that happen in my life are purposed by God to help me in life not hurt me, but I realize you don't see it that way. So aside from God answering my prayer that Baby Ben wouldn't need his tracheotomy, I really would like to have more personal impossible prayers answered that could only be undeniably of God. Alot of times Christians do limit Christ because they don't really believe that He can do some of the impossible. So, I decided to write me up a little list of impossible things, and you'll be glad to know you're very near the top of it. Anyways, I'll let you know how that comes.
I asked a trusted individual about how one can really KNOW one is trusting in the one, true God... and he said that that's a very a good question. (So, good question, Voltare44). The reason why some believe in God, is because some CHOOSE to believe in God's word. Okay... so what if someone (like you, dear Voltare44) doesn't choose to believe the Bible is God's word? This is where prayer comes in. It really cements it in for Christians, because there is nothing wrong with sitting down and saying, "Ok, God. If you are the one true God, and this is Your word, show me. Let me know deep inside that this is the TRUTH."
Now, I realize you're skeptical of any kind of spiritual 'feeling' or the such, but have you ever known something deep inside? It's not just 'belief'. It's a deep assurance, where you have no need to doubt, because you just know. Scientifically, this is impossible. But with God, this is possible. You don't just have to say 'oh, I CHOOSE to believe' and walk around and smile like a good Christan and pretend to love everyone and love God. You can know with all of your heart that there cannot be another God - because without a doubt you know God's word is true.
That's not much of an argument, but by way of explanation - it suffices.
Anyways, it's getting late and once again I have to cut things short. My deepest apologies if I didn't answer all of your thought-provoking questions, but rest assured I have either forgotten them or run out of answers (take your pick).
Hope your middle of the week finds you well and deeply thought-provoked. ttyl!
Andria
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